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PHILIP GOYAL: Persistence and Reidentification in Systems of Identical Quantum Particles
"Persistence and Reidentification in Systems of Identical Quantum Particles: Towards a Post-Atomistic Conception of Matter"
The quantum symmetrization procedure used to handle systems of identical quantum particles brings into question whether the elementary constituents of matter, such as electrons, have the fundamental characteristics of persistence and reidentifiability that are attributed to classical particles. However, we presently lack a coherent conception of matter composed of entities that do not possess one or both of these fundamental characteristics. We also lack a clear a priori understanding of why systems of identical particles (as opposed to non-identical particles) require special mathematical treatment, and this only in the quantum mechanical (as opposed to classical mechanical) setting. Here, on the basis of a conceptual analysis of a recent mathematical reconstruction of the quantum symmetrization procedure, I argue that the need for the symmetrization procedure originates in the confluence of identicality and the active nature of the quantum measurement process. I propose a conception in which detection-events are ontologically primary, while the notion of individually persistent object is relegated to merely one way of bringing order to these events. On this basis, I describe a new interpretation of the symmetrization procedure, which gives a new physical interpretation to the indices in symmetrized states and to non-symmetric measurement operators, and may provide a new approach to the vexing question of entanglement in identical particle systems.
Переглядів: 161

Відео

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КОМЕНТАРІ

  • @ttwear
    @ttwear 24 дні тому

    2024 china doing some energia with this😮

  • @frun
    @frun Місяць тому

    How does holography explain wave-particle duality?

  • @MikeSmith-cl4ix
    @MikeSmith-cl4ix Місяць тому

    A better explanation of what we were looking at would have been nice

  • @BracaPhoto
    @BracaPhoto 2 місяці тому

    Why do we say "2 particles" when it's really just the one ?? 1 particle split in half - what's the big deal? I don't want to trivialize it, but don't we complicate the discussion by saying "2" ?? Using your complicated Maths it never goes from 1 to 2 so why do we not say it's just the 1 split in half?? using the term "indistinguishable" when your really trying to say its 2 faces of the same coin

    • @BracaPhoto
      @BracaPhoto 2 місяці тому

      If you think of it as 1 particle then there's nothing "spooky" about it - of course altering one half of it alters the other half - Are there really even 2 particles or is it just a "blind spot" in the way we see it at that weird dimensional angle - Like seeing gravitational lensing for the first time and assuming there's a circular hollow star ???? Please help - I only have a GED but I'm almost there with the understanding - SPINORS make sense to me if that helps

    • @BracaPhoto
      @BracaPhoto 2 місяці тому

      I assume this phenomenon is only of interest because some theoretician thinks they can devise an experiment that could transfer information faster than the speed of light using this "lensing" . We are a long way away from measuring the information change faster than the speed of light and PROVING IT. We can't SYNC two Particle detectors together and VERIFY the information between the two FASTER than the speed of light. Obviosly

  • @mylittleelectron6606
    @mylittleelectron6606 3 місяці тому

    Omg, no comments? Let me be the first to heap on praise! I haven't seen many lectures from Dr snopes, but I'm now searching for more. It seems like condensates exist at the intersection between classical and quantum mechanics.

  • @leewilliam3417
    @leewilliam3417 3 місяці тому

    Great😊

  • @jamols09
    @jamols09 4 місяці тому

    I dont understand what im looking at tbh

  • @Cosmalano
    @Cosmalano 4 місяці тому

    This lecture was so wonderful. Wheeler is probably my academic hero, and his thoughts on the importance of measurement have occupied my mind for so long. I wish I had watched this years ago. I have so many new ideas now, this made so many things straight in my mind. Thank you so much for your irreversible act of amplifying Wheelers ideas!

  • @vk3cca
    @vk3cca 6 місяців тому

    Pauli spins are inadvertently complex objects. Not a good choice to refute the non-complex theorem. You should also make clear that you are dealing with non-stationary states. The latter description can always be done without complex numbers. Imagine a charge less quantum particle in a box. Clarification between a real number state description versus complex but Hermitian operators with observable states is important. In fact there are domain issues that plague the uncertainty principle derivations from QM.

  • @PhysicsNative
    @PhysicsNative 6 місяців тому

    I read through the two recently published papers cited in this talk, in PRX (theory) and Nature (experiment). I had several concerns not addressed by the questions during the talk, and not addressed in the papers. First, on the theoretical front, I get that one can model the classical variables with a stochastic PDF and even couple such a PDF into an evolution equation with quantum terms. However, the classical fluctuations are not arbitrarily large, there is some constraint. Backreactions are not arbitrarily large. Yet that is the conclusion reached, that one can obtain large classical stochastic fluctuations, which may be observable even for weak coupling such as gravity. The equations produced rely in part on Markovian quantum master equations, the Lindblad eq and the Kramers-Moyal expansion, all approximations that are often inaccurate. Yes, they give closed form eqs that can be solved, but at what tradeoff? Dropping nonlinear terms that constrain backreactions. Second, on the proposed experiment for “gravitational diffusion” - In the weak limit where gravity can be treated classically the strength of the coupling precludes any measurement of the effect of gravity on quantum decoherence, say over thermodynamical decoherence effects, even at low temperatures. Feynman had some solid examples in his lectures on gravitation, which is cited in the papers. For a gravitational perturbation on atomic dynamics, observing gravitational effects on the wave function phase would require a time equal to 100x the age of the universe. Gravity does not affect phase coherence in quantum systems in the weak limit. One can try to change that by introducing an unconstrained stochasticity as Oppenheim seems to have, but this would generate paradoxes beyond what he complains about from semiclassical gravity.

    • @JosCleland
      @JosCleland 5 місяців тому

      Atleast in the case I’ve been exposed to the Kramers-Moyal expansion (classics Fokker-Planck equations), the typical point of truncation occurs after the second order term, so it does go beyond linear there. The validity of the truncation is supported by Pawula’s theorem in that context, where KM coefficients of 3 or higher are zero.

  • @Achrononmaster
    @Achrononmaster 6 місяців тому

    @29:00 ok, but what I still find hard to grok here is why you need the stochasticity. Aren't you (implicitly?) _assuming_ gravity is well-described by gravitons? But that's not classical GR. Gravitons in GR are highly dispersive, and weak little blighters. To account for large scale gravity field effects you need the global spacetime of GR. This is what you're testing with the Feynman--Aharonov gedankenexperiments, right? But the classical GR fields is not a graviton, it has no particle-wave duality, it is all wave. So can superpose. So there's no inconsistency. I mean... right? The whole issue with which-way information from the EM fields was an issue only because the field is *_not_* a physical field, it's photons, which cannot be in superposition if they are classical particles. But they're not, and we know how to quantize the EM field --- namely with photons! We do not know how to do this for gravitons. And aren't Oppenheim's group saying there are no gravitons? Because GR is the thing! Feynman's argument was the interference when gravity is significant for giving up which-way information implied the gravity field has to have a "complex" amplitude (a non-classical probability amplitude). But surely that is only the case if gravity is the exchange of gravitons. If not, if gravity is spacetime curvature and gravity waves, then they _can_ be placed into (classical) superposition just like a hypothetical classical Maxwell-Faraday field. Then classical gravity defeats Feynman, no? I mean, help me out here! Imagine light was not actually photons, but pure Maxwell-Faraday waves. Then interference would not be a problem, it'd be classical. Similarly for firing probe light at diffracting electrons or neutrons or whatever, the classical light could not give you which-way information if in superposition, which classical light can be. But we know light is non-classical by other means, precisely because even when probing for which-way information, a large enough photon wavelength will fail to distinguish which way, regaining interference. What this means (imho) is the test should be of a different type. Not for stochastic gravity, but for superposed gravity waves (a very delicate experiment to be sure, impossible with current technology). I mean, do all test feasible of course, but if the stochastic gravity test fails, try the other. Implicitly here I've been assuming realism, that is, an electron or any other particle quanta, subject to two-slit interference or the like, does in fact go through both slits. It's a sum-over-histories type of realism. If that's the way QM works, then the _classical_ gravity field is non-zero around both slits, giving no immediate which-way information. That also means, to truly check for quantum gravity you're looking at the ultimate experiment: interfere actual gravitons (not classical gravity waves). Since Dyson and Feynman argued gravitons can _never_ be detected, this casts a terrible shadow over experimental physics, if this is all the case. Meaning these dodgy indirect test are likely all we're ever gonna have to test theories of gravity.

    • @lydiamariewilliamson3544
      @lydiamariewilliamson3544 6 місяців тому

      By gravitons? Quite the opposite! In fact, in the first (2018) version of his 1811.03116 ArXiv preprint, he even included this passage "and there are even some experimental hints pointing towards the absence of the graviton" citing these references: R. Lieu, "Exclusion of standard ℏω gravitons by LIGO observation", Classical and Quantum Gravity 35, 19LT02 (2018). R. A. Norte, M. Forsch, A. Wallucks, I. Marinković, and S. Gröblacher, Phys. Rev. Lett. 121, 030405 (2018). The context of the LIGO-related cite was, in fact, part of a direct reply to Feynman and Dyson that went: "Yes, we do have a way of seeing the sign of gravitons, with the aid of LIGO, we tried it and we saw nothing." The way this was framed made it look like a 2010-decade rendition of a Michelson-Morley "didn't see anything" experimental no go. Curiously, I don't see the references in the last (2023) version of the PDF. More curiously: there was no mention of leaving open any possibility of the hybridized framework being a possible "classical limit" to a quantum gravity in the 2018 version, either. Oppenheim? You have some explaining to do!

  • @tim57243
    @tim57243 6 місяців тому

    The audio is missing on this one until 3:00.

  • @djangogeek
    @djangogeek 6 місяців тому

    Fantastic work, thanks for sharing

  • @djangogeek
    @djangogeek 6 місяців тому

    So if there is an upper limit on the coherence times of single particle quantum states, or if there is a lower limit on how quickly you can measure the gravitational field, those findings will prove gravity is both classical and stochastic?

    • @Achrononmaster
      @Achrononmaster 6 місяців тому

      Doesn't it need to be a bit of both? (see @1:03:00) The idea is if there is still interference, but gravity has dispersed too much so the (classical) gravity field can give up which-way information, then that's a total inconsistency. It would imply gravity has to be described by amplitudes, so is "quantum mechanical". Which is perhaps merely to say gravitons exist. It does not say spacetime is a fiction, so it does not say classical GR is false. It'd just say gravitons exist too. Then the goal would have to be to show *_all_*_ of the effect_ can be accounted for by gravitons, so then GR is redundant and is not an actual theory for our universe.

    • @tarekpena4411
      @tarekpena4411 3 місяці тому

      The lower limit in diffusion, I understand, must be the lower limit in the noise of the measurements of the mass in the cavendish experiment. The proposal is that by obtaining these limits they can rule out theories out of those boundaries.

    • @djangogeek
      @djangogeek 3 місяці тому

      @@tarekpena4411 thank you

  • @max_mel1
    @max_mel1 6 місяців тому

    I remember that part of Bohr Einstein debate was about a moveable slit and that the particle will influence the slit and thus the uncertainty principle has to be included for the slit. Is this part of the discussion?

    • @Achrononmaster
      @Achrononmaster 6 місяців тому

      No. That was about gaining which-way information through all the other mechanical forces. Oppenheim and Feynman--Aharonov et al., are talking about which-way information from the gravitational field and _only_ the gravitational field. The point being there has to be a non-classical amplitude for the field if it could provide which-way information, otherwise we'd never observe interference, and of course we do, observe interference routinely. But these are always incredible small masses, so with tiny gravitational field effects. You need about 0.00001 grams to get a significant effect with current gravity detection technology (I believe) and that's super damn heavy for elementary quantum coherent systems, almost impossible to presently engineer. So Oppenheim is still speaking at a gedankenexperiment level of discourse. The issue is that if we cannot detect gravitons or such weak gravity fields --- *_and_* maintain the coherence of the particle superpositions --- then we have no which-way information, so gravity _could_ be purely classical. Feynman acknowledged this, but said for gravity to not give up which-way information would require a new principle of physics, one that implies, for example, that too much mass involved will by pure principle destroy coherence. No one knows of such a principle yet. Oppenheim's candidate principle is that classical gravity has to have some sort of metaphysical noise.

  • @spiritualwisdom515
    @spiritualwisdom515 7 місяців тому

    its not opposite rotation. its a mirror, a reflection.

  • @FallenStarFeatures
    @FallenStarFeatures 7 місяців тому

    There seems to have been a persistent aversion to the complex nature of the wave function among pioneers of quantum mechanics, rooted in their desire for an entirely physical formulation of quantum physics. The fact is, however, that the quantum wave function does not exist in 3D physical space, but is defined instead in complex-valued Configuration Space, an abstract domain of potentially limitless numbers of dimensions. In order to derive physically observable manifestions of the wave function, Hermetian operators must be applied to the Schrodinger equation to produce measurable eigenvalues. A key property of these Hermetian eigenvalues is that they are always real-valued quantities, indicative of solutions that can be manifest in physical space. Of course, the probability densities of these solutions are given by the conjugate square of the wave function, which likewise always produces real-valued results.

  • @user-wm7ml9ni5m
    @user-wm7ml9ni5m 8 місяців тому

    hello sir, i need the mathematical proof of entanglement. Proof of G^pE at 11:26 in the lecture

  • @RaulikiDJ
    @RaulikiDJ 9 місяців тому

    electroatoms ❤

  • @paulg444
    @paulg444 9 місяців тому

    Very important issue for all of us teaching STEM.

  • @JayJay-de5jv
    @JayJay-de5jv 10 місяців тому

    Funny they just released a photo of quantum entanglement and looks similar but you guys have it from 10 years ago

  • @cncserbem
    @cncserbem 10 місяців тому

    There's a "grey" space around this particle. I want to know what haves inside this space....

  • @Blazeww
    @Blazeww 10 місяців тому

    So why does it look just like the yin yang symbol

    • @duckb8061
      @duckb8061 9 місяців тому

      They don’t ever look like that. It’s the process of (quantum) ghost imaging that create an artificial image of the Yin and Yang diagram (the Taijitu) then the mass media claimed “it’s the visualization of two photons”

  • @IQOQIVienna
    @IQOQIVienna 11 місяців тому

    Intro / Setup: 0:00 Start Talk: 2:07

  • @IQOQIVienna
    @IQOQIVienna 11 місяців тому

    Start of the talk 1:34

  • @zacharyburell1747
    @zacharyburell1747 Рік тому

    this problem is solved by the Paddy's approach

  • @MrHuman002
    @MrHuman002 Рік тому

    Amazing stuff.

  • @car103d
    @car103d Рік тому

    “You wanna clean that up when you've finished praying to it?”

  • @jjeverson2269
    @jjeverson2269 Рік тому

    Is this Jada and August up close?

  • @dimitrispapadimitriou5622

    All versions / interpretations of QM are non local, at least in the " weak " sense ( i.e. that's compatible with Relativity). Some alternatives ( like Bohmian mechanics) are non local in a stronger sense ( they require some preferred reference frame, so , " behind the scenes" they're not really compatible with SR, although this characteristic does not have observational consequences, at least given some assumptions about the statistical distribution of the Bohmian particles). So far, so good. But I disagree about Everett: It's also "weakly non local" , just like the other interpretations of standard unmodified QM. It doesn't matter that the wavefunction doesn't collapse. Locality is, by definition, a "property" of the physical 4-dimensional Spacetime, not of abstract mathematical multi dimensional spaces.

  • @randolph9201
    @randolph9201 Рік тому

    cannot see blackboard at 24:00

    • @IQOQIVienna
      @IQOQIVienna Рік тому

      We apologize for that, the setting was only for a ppt presentation.

  • @sheilarodriguez2451
    @sheilarodriguez2451 Рік тому

    🤷 *Promosm*

  • @anywallsocket
    @anywallsocket Рік тому

    decoherence is when the information contained in the wave function gets smeared out by environmental noise, or factors not considered to be inside the system of interest, and therefore results in some information being lost, and therefore a reversibility. blackholes as you have them here destroy correlations across the boundary, by preventing any ordinary reversibility, therefore erasing information relative to the outside system. all that said, the results elucidated here make perfect sense and should be seen to be intuitive by all members involved -- they are probably intrinsically skeptical of young people presenting new ideas lol.

  • @dimitrispapadimitriou5622

    19:10 That " dotted line " prof. Curiel is referring to, is a Cauchy horizon. A spacetime with a completely evaporated ( no remnant ) black hole is non globally hyperbolic.

  • @TechyBen
    @TechyBen Рік тому

    I do see a simple "solution". We can all observe and set possibilities. That is, if I observe "spin up" and you observe "spin down", the alternative is identical, as in, it makes not physical difference the spin direction, but it does our correlation between them. As our correlation is a different physical interaction, we can have a nested observer setting some spin directions (cat alive or cat dead) while others are not set (the sum of observing the room with the scientist). As the scientist sets some spins, but not all, we should find a solution between us that agrees, even though some observations may not.

  • @schmetterling4477
    @schmetterling4477 Рік тому

    Yes, that was a lot of bullshit. :-)

  • @schmetterling4477
    @schmetterling4477 Рік тому

    Scientific realism is bullshit. End of story.

  • @rogerjohnson2562
    @rogerjohnson2562 Рік тому

    Real time?

  • @edgerck3924
    @edgerck3924 Рік тому

    Although Weyl training was on these mythical aspects, the infinitesimal transformation and Lie algebra, he saw an application of groups in the many-electron atom, which must have a finite number of equations. The discrete Weyl-Heisenberg group comes from these discrete observations, and do not use infinitesimal transformations at all, with finite dimensional representations. Similarly, this is the same as someone trained in infinitesimal calculus, traditional, starts to use rational numbers in calculus, with DDF [1]. The similar previous training applies in both fields, from a "continuous" field to a discrete, quantum field. In that sense, R~Q*.

  • @schmetterling4477
    @schmetterling4477 Рік тому

    And this is why philosophy has been bullshit since 500BC. ;-)

  • @martasanchez7379
    @martasanchez7379 Рік тому

    hola. totalmente de acuerdo

  • @mark970lost8
    @mark970lost8 Рік тому

    so... uhm, why entanglement only works with photons? why never an actual particle has ever been entangled? and i am not talking about none of those fake particles, like leptons muons and alike, i'm talking about actual particles, like atoms that exists in the real world, and not just in "quackum physics" fantasy world

  • @mcasariego
    @mcasariego Рік тому

    Awesome talk. I wish the second example was available. Any possibility of getting the slides at least?

  • @drgo9278
    @drgo9278 Рік тому

    Thank you for this talk!

  • @joelhkbn
    @joelhkbn Рік тому

    I still didn't get it

  • @kyledelossantos8303
    @kyledelossantos8303 Рік тому

    that is much better, amazing experiment.

  • @ShopperPlug
    @ShopperPlug Рік тому

    Interesting, would be cool if you showed how everything works.

  • @peterfields4425
    @peterfields4425 Рік тому

    excellent talk!

  • @dimitrispapadimitriou5622

    This is very interesting, but the questions/ remarks from the audience are barely audible, unfortunately..

    • @IQOQIVienna
      @IQOQIVienna Рік тому

      Yes, we apologize for that, the device was not working properly.

    • @dimitrispapadimitriou5622
      @dimitrispapadimitriou5622 Рік тому

      @@IQOQIVienna Thank you very much for all these videos with these really interesting talks! I really appreciate your efforts and time. The audio problems are only a minor issue.

  • @dimitrispapadimitriou5622

    1:03:00 There are some serious problems here for pilot wave theories : Absolute simultaneity and preferred foliation do not fit with Relativity. What defines , physically, this supposed absolute rest frame? Also, spacetimes with fully evaporating black holes are non globally hyperbolic. It's interesting that in Pilot wave theories this explicit non locality cannot be used for superluminal signaling, but the breakdown of causality/ relativistic locality , even " behind the scenes" , may have consequences for the rest of physics and also being in tension with observations. Besides all that, this was an interesting and well presented talk.

    • @cerebral1095
      @cerebral1095 Рік тому

      Not a physicist, but didn’t he say that nonlocal signalling is possible in pilot wave theory, if the entangled particles are in a non-equilibrium state ie has not relaxed to the quantum equilibrium state?

    • @dimitrispapadimitriou5622
      @dimitrispapadimitriou5622 Рік тому

      @@cerebral1095In this version of PWT, the distribution for the particle positions is not in equilibrium initially, so no-signaling is obeyed after equilibrium is reached. I don't disagree with that, but the main point of my comment was that pilot wave theories are in tension with relativity even if no-signaling is not violated ( because they need an absolute reference frame, as in the old pre-Einstein days of Larmor, Fitzgerald et al, so the usual relativistic effects, like time dilation/ length contraction cannot be explained kinematically anymore).

    • @cerebral1095
      @cerebral1095 Рік тому

      @@dimitrispapadimitriou5622 yeah I think he did mention this limitation with the theory during the talk as well.

    • @schmetterling4477
      @schmetterling4477 Рік тому

      The Schroedinger equation is non-relativistic and suffers from the same problem, so it's obvious that nr Bohmian mechanics, which is completely equivalent, can't do better. There is no mystery here. If you use a nr equation of motion, then you can't expect relativity to hold.

    • @dimitrispapadimitriou5622
      @dimitrispapadimitriou5622 Рік тому

      @@schmetterling4477 Given the assumption about the "distribution of particle positions" , Bohmian mechanics is no different from standard QM phenomenologically, yes. But it needs an absolute reference frame at the fundamental level ( while standard QM does not ), so it has a problem with special relativity. QFTs are relativistic as you probably know...